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sikander, you have misunderstood my comment about the karachi violence by thinking that i was justifying the violence in kashmir.if islam is what is behind your call for something to happen in kashmir, then you are also probably thinking like osama binladen, who wants to become the leader of the world's muslims.you will also probably want to divide this world into followers of islam and non-followers of islam.next, you will also probably start believing that the creator of the followers of islam and the creator of the non-followers of islam are different.you will be repudiating the very teachings of islam that there is only one god.
ReplyDeleteyou will be aware that the state of jammu and kashmir has special status in the indian constitution.since india is far more stable and far more economically successful,the logical aspiration of any people will be for stability and peace.since pakistan is the most vocal backer of the kashmiri cause, would nt it be better if a referendum is held in pakistan occupied kashmir,to find out whether the people of pakistan occupied kashmir want to join the Indian Union.
we have stability here and economic viability as well. we are a secular democracy.and jammu and kashmir has a special status in our constitution.
legally, jammu and kashmir is a part of the Indian Union. the obvious solution would be for the rest of the state to become a part of India.
If it is Islam that is behind your espousal of the Kashmiri cause, then, probably, you also share the cause of Osama.
Osama Bin Laden is an evil man who has damaged the cause of oppressed Muslims all over the world. Kashmir is a nationalist cause by a people who happen to be Muslim. No one should be able to ignore the cause of Kashmiri people because they adhere to a religion which is not so much in the vogue these days.
ReplyDeleteNo one is asking for Kashmir to become part of some World Islamic state ( a fantasy of utmost proportions) but for the right of self-determination for the people who were promised such an outcome at the very start of this dispute to either join the State of Pakistan or State of India. Now there is also the factor of Kashmiri people themselves.
Your economic argument is not valid as it is like saying that because China is more prosperous than India so the state of Arunachal Pradesh should join China without taking into consideration what the people of Arunachal Pradesh think about it. That would be a travesty, wouldn’t it?
sikander, there is nothing that would be more pleasing and more a greatest joy than a peaceful stable and stong Pakistan, and a Jammu and Kashmir that is united,and is a bridge between India and Pakistan.there would be many solutions which could be thrown up,like an united jammu and kashmir that would be a state in both countries,with both countries sitting together in some administrative body. or maybe the whole issue will simply just disappear if a mini saarc between just india and pakistan is set up.then the kashmiris just wont have any issue.
ReplyDeletewhatever the history,1953 before or after,the fact of the matter is that kashmir has a special status in the indian constitution,and there is no threat to the kashmiri culture.neither is there any oppression.all the current violence from 1989 onwards started because of the apprehension that there was a tilt towards pakistan.the authors of that tilt,could only have had islam on their minds,and consequently have brought about bloodshed over two decades.those authors did not have the simplest knowledge that there are probably more muslims in India as in Pakistan.so,the issue became plain for India, that someone was trying to destabilise India,using islam as the pretext,which was a non-issue, considering he number of muslims who are Indians.
There is just no issue in Jammu and Kashmir.it is legally a part of the Indian Union.The only way that Kashmir can become united is if pakistan occupied Kashmir is united with the rest of the state,or if India and pakistan unite into a mini-SAARC.
For that, we have to bear with patience,until there emerges a leader or a movement in Pakistan,which is able to vanquish the addiction to Jihad of the restless and unled groups,who are misled into folly,by those who misread the koran.
As for the economic point, you will surely be aware of Turkey's quest to be a part of the European Union.
"Mini SAARC" is a non starter.
ReplyDeleteYour first idea was what Musharaf proposed but India rejected. That sounds like something practical.
Turkey is not Kashmir, I would refer you again to my previous comment that no matter how much stronger China is in economic terms, India will never accept that as a valid argument to cede Arunachal Pradesh to that country. Ideas for which people fight for are not for sale. Countries & nations are not for sale, especially in the case of Kashmir after losing so many lives, people cannot be bought with the promise of jobs and economic uplift.
its not as if jobs and economic uplift are the primary argument.
ReplyDeleteislam cannot be an argument as there are millions of muslims living in India.
the culture is not being stifled and destroyed,as india is a secular democracy.over and above,j&k emjoys special status.
legally,j&k is a part of the Indian union.
the final argument that can be just thrown in for a flavour,is the economic bit,though it is actually the most vital part of the life of human beings.
lives were lost,as these most basic arguments were not grasped by those who were attracted by the idea of joining Pakistan.those who fought for independence have been reasonable to nderstand that india is also about human beings and is not about some monsters.why would anyone want to delink from a vibrant and orderly and secure and successful sea of humanity,that respects the rule of law, and does not put any one ideology above the rest.
do the kashmiris want to retire into a life of recluse and seclusion.will they ban travel into and out of their territory.if they have the khmer rouge as an ideal,then it could be valid.
it is just impossible to grasp, geelani must actually be fighting with pakistan to let go of the part of his land that is occupied by Pakistan,instead her does the opposite,and the people,cursed with a leader like that,atre losing their lives for no reason,just because geelani does not have reason.
as for arunachal pradesh, it is a non-argument,as again,any people anywhere in this world,including the people of Pakistan,will find secular democracy to be the best option.and that is what India is,luckily,for us that live in it.it is our wish that you also have parties like the democratic party of pakistan,the pakistani national congress,etc...that attempt to excel with what god has given us,instead of using a personal code of discipline to fit onto everyone that can be grabbed.
the floods might be the beginning for pakistan,its a god sent opportunity to focus on Pakistan,instead of Hindustan and afghanistan.
Hi Samurai,
ReplyDeletePlease read this article which is published in Guardian newspaper by Pankaj Mishra on Saturday 14 August 2010.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/aug/14/silence-over-kashmir-conflict
hi sikander, thank you for raising that article, which is just some disconnected writers ramblings. if you can work out a reasonable reason for kashmir to become independent,that would be the best possible effort by you. if you are unable to do it, the answer is obvious, that pok must be united with india, which is the legal,moral,economic and the only correct solution.
ReplyDeleteDear Samurai,
ReplyDeleteDo you not see the death on the streets of Kashmir? Do you think that there is any comparison between 80,000 people who have died in last 20 years in Indian occupied Kashmir in the resistance going on there and the Azad Kashmir where nothing of that sort has happened.
Anyone who does not agree with Indian mentality towards Kashmir is a "disconnected writer". I guess that you & your media do not want to hear or tell the truth. You want to live in a cocoon where you feel sheltered and safe among the people who share the same thinking about oppression of Kashmiri people.
Also, why everything Indians do or say stops at Pakistan. This issue is between the oppressors (Indians) & the oppressed (Kashmiris). Kashmiris want freedom and you have killed 55 of them in last few days for demanding it. Still you keep harping on about Pakistan. Talk to Kashmiris, give them what they want. You want Azad Kashmir; you can’t handle the Kashmir that you already have.
Indians are in denial about the issues at hand, they want to bury their heads in sand and don’t want to hear about Kashmir but you will have to. One day you will have to listen, it is only the matter of time. So many people have lost their lives but Kashmiris have not lost their will, I guess that you will have to kill another 80,000 innocent men, women & children to find out if Kashmiris still want azadi and you will find that they still do.
religiously motivated people never will realise the damage they do to the common man.the geelanis of kashmir and the newer hardliners are watching from the sidelines, as the people are sent forth into the streets, fed with misinformation.
ReplyDeletethere is a chief minister,to whom the people must go,with their problems.the religiously motivated hardliners,are not going anywhere,with their foolish urge of addiction to religion.
only the poor common man will have to realise,after paying the price,that some religious fanatics,the folk who insult the creator by fighting forever for a religion,the folks whom the creator can only despise, have taken them for a ride.
when they realise, the geelanis and the other hardliners will fade into oblivion, as the advanis are fading.
religion is the first refuge of the human being who does not want to work with the brain and the senses given by creation. the person who does not want to use the brain to reason and compromise will be waging war forever. the democratic and the sensible know that reason and clarity will only win,as what is the use for possessing reason,if it will have to fail to the religiously motivated irreasonable fanatic.
you have not stated the case for kashmir to become independent.is there subjugation of the culture and the language.no.is there space for a honourable opposition to the government.yes.
Dear Samurai,
ReplyDeleteYou are stuck with the argument against religion. Indian state may not be religious as per the constitution but in practice the state and the society are fervently religious. Religion has a hold on people’s minds and bodies in India. People do not marry outside their own caste let alone the religion. A Brahmin will never marry a Dalit no matter how educated/sophisticated that Dalit is (I personally know one case). Your media has started to believe its own propaganda about the enlightened and shining India.
India claims to be religiously tolerant but in practice the facts are different. According to a latest report published by Reuters “The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom has placed India on its “watch list” because of the “disturbing increase in communal violence against religious minorities” and the inadequate response by the Indian government to protect their rights.
Countries on the watch list require “close monitoring,” and India is now in the company of Afghanistan, Belarus, Cuba, Egypt, Indonesia, Laos, the Russian Federation, Somalia, Tajikistan, Turkey and Venezuela.” Orissa, Gujarat, Sachar commission report on plight of Muslims, Delhi riots against Sikhs e.t.c are just few examples of an “enlightened” people so let’s not dwell too much on the religious freedoms in India.
how did you arrive at the conclusion that the state is fervently religious.
ReplyDeletea brahmin and a dalit do not belong to the same religion.a dalit would probably not feel interested in marrying a brahmin,as they belong to totally different religions. as for a brahmin never marrying a dalit,the question just does not arise, as where is the need for the rooted person to go out in search of the minority brahmin.it might be a case in urban india, where the feeling of an almost alien ethos might stand in the way, in the way that the two exist and think,the feeling would probably be mutual.
the people are not imprisoned by any ideology, which makes them unable to tolerate others with other beliefs. the brahmin oriented party,the bjp, is the equivalent of your islamist parties, who are addicted to the thought of serving and strengthening their religion. they are immaterial and irrelevant to the majority of the people, who are not stuck and frozen. they keep evolving, with the culture and age-old civilisational traditions, that is at the root and heart of everything.
do not make the mistake of equating the vast subcontinent, with the religious parties of either india or pakistan. the people basically are simple and unpretentious.
the term hindu is just a word that embraces multiple religions.
"how did you arrive at the conclusion that the state is fervently religious."
ReplyDeleteI came to this conclusion by not believing in fairy tales but by looking at in whose name Babri Masjid was destroyed? What lead to the victory of BJP? How Gujarat happened? What does Sachar commission report says? In whose name 80000 Kashmiris were murdered? I can go on but to say that India is not a Hindu society dominated & run by Hindus is a blatant lie. I know people like you honestly strive for a secular India but India is not secular yet. It might become a secular society sometime in future but it is not a secular society at the moment.